tv Charlie Rose PBS June 16, 2011 11:00pm-12:00am PDT
>> rose: welcome to thprogram. we begin this ening with the governor of massachutts,eval patric >> i had some great teachers, adults, who paid attention to me who helped translate it for me and heed me crack the code. and i learned i could compete. i also learned how, you know, the sense in both... was that each world, both e academy world and my home on the south side of chicago, each o seemed to require the rejection of the other as a price of admissi and h that was aalse choice. that i had to figure out who i was and be that all the time. then youane any placecececececee >> ros we continue with a look at reform in iran. >> you need to distinguish between change and change of
regime. what we want is the right of self-determination of the iranian people. the iranian people must be about to decide. we want a democratic government and if the people want to change the government and the regime it's up to the people decide. but what we want is to have a democratic process in iran. >> rose: we conclude this evening with ann kreamer and mark truss and the subject of emotion in the workplace. >> the recession meant that for the first time in american history women were over 50% of the work force. >> rose: right. >> so that was one of those ah-ha kind of lightbulbs. is this a moment to step back and rethink workplaceorpls. how offices function. the send was inround the 2000s the functional magnetic resonance imaging machine lowed us to look at working human brains. so i thought are women and men different in any kind of
neurobiological way? and that led to th expiration of the book. >> rose: the governor of massachusetts, iranian reform, and emotions in the workplace when we continue. we allll roofor.who ats s the ds l acacrossmeririca.p@t@@@btsta , a ststis b burneor t mididnighol thl@ for r a re herero, iyou u wannrt pporort sml bubusine.
captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: deval patrick is here. he is the governor of massachusetts. in his first term, he oversaw the implementation of the state's alth careeform program. today more tn 98% of massachuses redents have health care insurance. for a second term, he's focusing on education reform and, of urse, on balancing the budget. he was raised on the south side of icago. after a scholarship to miln academy, in massacsetts, he attended harvard university and harvard law school. he's written a new book about this journey of his. it is calle "a reason to believe: lesso fromn improbable life." i'm pleased to have him at this table. welcome. >> thank you. thank you so much for having me. >> rose: so talk about growing up. and let's just start with mother and father and the moment your father, who was musician, leaves home.
>> well, my parents split when i was four. as you said, i grew up on the south side of chicago and much of that time on welfare. my father was a dedicated musician. he was one of the founders of an avant-garde jazz band. very good jazz band called su a. >> rose: but also played with duke ellington. >> duke, they will loanus monk, who he loved. and he was totally dedicated to his music and i didn't apprecte the discipline and engagement of my father as a musical professional as a four-year-d. what i appreciated was that he was distant and my parents had a strained relationship and one day, as i write about in the book, he came home, my mother was very tense, they had a huge argument over what turned out to be an affair that my father... and another child my father had fathered and he stormed out and i chased him down thelock and while he was telling know go home and go home and finally he
lostis patience and turned around and let me have one and went sprawling out on the sidewalk and that's the view fr which i watched him walk away. and i didn't see him for a few years after. that. >> ros what brout you two back together. >> well, my mother, bletsz her heart, she really was determined that we have a relationship. my sister and i. r havellergiesship with my father. so she would write to him and have us write to him when he moveto new york and he brought us to visit. she brought us to visit him. he would check in from time to time. but finally there were occasions and one in particular any 25th birthday i was in law school at the time and i was working in the summer at a firm in washington and he came through town and he was doing a gig in northeast washington and he said "why don't you let me celebrate your birthday with you?" and i did and i went over to this jazz club and i don't think
we'd celebrated a birthday together since i was three or four years old. i went over to this jazz club and he saw me come in and at the next break he decated the next song to me. and he played an old standard calledi can't gettarted" and i knew the song and knew the words and heust stad at me while he was playing. "i can't get started. i've been around the world in e plane, i've started revolutions in spain, the north pole i've charted, still i can't get started with you." and it just... we just communicated so much in that time. and then over the years through fits and start wes found our wa and my wife, who is... i married up. my wife was a great help in getting my father and i to finally find our way to each other. >> rose: milton academy. >> yeah. >> rose: you're living on the south side of chicago. >> uh-huh. >> rose: you didn't know what
milton academy was! you're right. exactly. >> rose: and you end up there. >> right. >> rose: how did you end up there? >> there was a marvelous program called "a better chance" which i still support and believe in. it's based here in new york. which was essentially a talent arch program. >> rose: to bring diversity to... >> the euphemism was they brought non-traditional prep school kids to boarding school. >> rose: you were non-traditional? >> i was very non-traditional. i grew up, as i said, on the soh side of icago and i lived there with my grandparents and my mother and sister in a two bedroom tentment. we shared one of those rooms in the bunk beds so you'd go from the top fwoung the bottom bunk to the floor. >> rose: and going there taught yowhat? i mean, all of a sudden... i grew up in a small town in north carolina. at some point you learn you can compete. you learn that even though you haven't been raised like everybody else you can compete. >> but you kno what? in my case i didn't learn that right away.
at the beginning i thought, you know, they are making references to classical literature in the ninth grade that i'd only heard about. >> rose: in fact y said some of these kids had the same names as the people on the building. >> that's right. (laughs) i tease about how i now learned that schools like milton acamy and harvard the graduates don't die, they just turn into milton. but it was... i had some great teachers who paid attention to me, anslated fore aelp med crack the code and i learned i could compete. i also learned how, you know, the sense in both... was that each world, both the milton academy world and my world back home on the south side of chicago, each one seemed to require the rejection of the other as the price of admission and how that was a false choice. that i had to figure out who i was and be that all the time and then you could be any place. >> rose: and then harvard. >> yeah. >> rose: and then law school. >> with some time in sudan, yes. >> rose: tell me about that. why did you want to go to africa?
>> well, i had a... i wasn't quite sure what i wanted to do when i graduated college, which is not unusual. i won a fellowship, sothing called a microrockefeller fellowship which was set up by the son michael, governor rockefeller's son, who had been lost in new guinea and the one requirement is you spend a year in a distinctly non-western culture. and they gave me just enough money toet there and get home. not enough to hole up in a local intercontinental hotel. i wasnterested in being some place in africa. i'd never traveled outside the united states before so i wrote everybody who i knew who knew somebody in africa and i got one reply from this fellow on a project in sudan. he said "come. i'm not sure what you'll do but come over." >> rose: take a tangent for a second from me. tell me... your very good friend is president of the united states. what do you think his experience
is? because i just had abook here, a woman who wrote about about his mother. what do you thinkhi experiences shaped him in tms of the world view? >>he way i describe it is that he has a pre-disposition for looking t rather than . beingery curious about the world. very interested in variety of humankind and i think it's also true he's influenced b facts. he's very strong conviions, including political convictions. but his mind can be changedy cts and i can tell you for me that is a great, gat comfort have as the leader of the free world. >> rose: h do you think his election has changed the idea of ce in america? if it has. >> well, i think it's sort of ticklet had idea of race i america. in other words, it's made... you know, i was down there for the inauguration. >> rose: no kidding. (laughs) >> as everybody else was.
>> rose: well, i was, too, you'd be there but you played a role in the primaries. >> well, i was excited to do so. but in some ways the most exciting moments for me were the quiet ones outside of the gre publ events. i remember going out to chicago, i wanted to be in grant park on election night and i flew out a little bit early and took a ride out to the south side of chicago and sat on the stoop of the tenement where i'd own up. i just sat there quietl >> rose: what did you any >> ihought to myself my, my, my. it sure looks like the first black man in history is about to be elected president of the united states. and i was walking around the back and i had state troopers with me so i don't get to just wander. i walked around the back and i was looking in the little back yashgsd the tch where my grandmother used to grow roses and the neighbors' back door was open. it was an uncommonly balmy night
in november and their back door was open, a marvelous smell of friechicken was wafting out and this lady came to the back door charlie and she looked out at me and the two state troopers and she said "y'all police?" >> rose: (laughs) >> and i said, no, i said they are but i used to live here. she said where do you ve now? i said i live in boston now and i have for a long time and she said what do you do? and i said well i'm the governor of massachusetts. she said oh, my goodness. she said it's... i've forgotten his name, maybe jony's birthday. five years old. she said come on in, i want you to meet him. and so i came in and i shook his hand and we took a picture and i looked down at him and he looked up at me just all this pride on his face and he said "you know what?" i said "what?" he said "we're going to have a black president today." that to me is about the impact of the president's win.
it's not like we have entered the promise land. we still have a lot of work to do and the president is clear about that. >> rose: it's not to say there's no racism in america or the world. it is to say there was a moment that a five-year-old could say y skin color will notrevent me from being president of the united states." >> that's right. that's right. and i get that at home and i sends chills down my sne a kes me veryroud ofthe people of massachusetts that they're willing to look past the things that used to get in the way ansay, you know, that's who we want to represent us. >> rose: y decided to go into politics. what causes a man to say... (laughs) ... >> can i just say my wife asked the same question but in a very different tone? (laughs) >> rose: are you out of your mind? >> something like that. >> rose: it was hard on her, wasn't it? >> it was hard on her. she is a... i wn't kiddin when i said iarried up.
she's e talent in our family. >> rose: lawyer. >> very successful lawyer. and marvelous mother, former teacher. and a beloved friend. but she's a very private person and s's... it interesting because she's incredible on the stump and publicly. when i was running the first time, we'd be on thetage tother, it wasn't unusual for somebody to say "why that guy? why not her?" >> rose: yeah. >> buthe kind of grind that comes from the public scruty of beingn public life. >> rosyou'relso very frank about the toll it takes on a family. >> yes. yes. she d a serious bout with depression early in the first term and was hospitalized for a periodf time and it was scary for her and for the family. but people rallied and they were there were thousands of gestures of grace and encouragement and a tremenus amount of restraint from the immediate what during that period as well.
>> rose: soow you've had two terms. ran for governor, elected. ran again, elected. is this it in politics for you? >> well, for now. >> rose: for now. >> we don't have term limits. but i'm going to finish this second term and then go back into private life. try to make a little money. squirrel away my acorns and then we'll see. this is not my career, charlie. so i can do the job without focusing on my career. one of the reasons-- and maybe the central reason-- why i wanted to get in is because in business i noticed this incredible pressu to manage for the next quarter to get the short-term results and sometimes sacrifice in the long term inrest of the enterprise. and i ha been concerned for some time that that behavior has leaked into the way we govern. >> rose: because of the 34 24--hour television. >> the next news cycle, the next election cycle. but we have big decision wes need to make for the long term. >>ose: it's an invest nps the future. >> exactly. >> rose: and it these do with
our sense of positn in the world whether we can tonight the leaders we have been. >> and it's generational responsibility. it was another generation that thought about a generation to come and made big decisions then and that's whye have the blessings we do. we need to be doing that same thing today for a generation to come. >> rose: here's the thought i ha. i mean, lienin to this life story, how many young kids somehow won't be touched the opportunity that you had in a nse to show all the talent that you had. and the responsibility of our society to make sure that every young kid can have the kind of opportunity that someone who came from where you did do what you're able to do. how do we make sure, guarantee, opportunity? >> well, i think, you know, you won't be surprised to hear i think education is central. >> rose: central. >> everybody says it. few people do it. you know, we have... we've been on a journey of educational reform for 18 ars in
massachusetts. but we've got a certain traction right now. our students are number one in the nation in student achievement and have been for each of the last five years. and yet weave had a persistent achievement gap and stuck in that gap are poor children, children with special needs. children who speak english as a second language. we need some new tools for them. and so we worked on the next chapter in education reform to create those new tools and new rules and innovation in the classroom to be able to reach them. we funded publi schoolat the highest vel in the histo of the commonwealth when the bottom was falling out of everything else in the state budget. i think education fir and fomost. it's why you can have a story like mine. mine is a uniquely american story. it doesn't get toldas often as we'd like, but it gets told more often in this country. >> rose: and the telling means something. "a reason toelieve: lessons from an improbableife." the state, sir, in many ws they've seen some incredible challenges. >> they are. we are. but we faced up to our decisions. i told you, we've had to...
we've invested in education significantly. we've encouraged those innovation industries where we're getting our highest growth and we've also done the unglamorous work of rebuilding the infrastructure. and at the same time our budgets have been responsible, balanced, and on time every year i've been in office. our bond rating has gotn stronger. our unemployment rate is well below the national average. we've moved up to fifth best place in the nation in which to business do business. young people are moving in for the first time 20 years. i'm not ready to declare victory because we've got so much more to do. but we have... we've been making choices based on a set of convictions about how toeave a better commonwealth and is an old-fashioned idea but that's... >> rose: and in many ways states can be a laborator for government. >> yes. well, health care. >> rose: health care. we'll talk about that next time. this book is called "a reason to believe: lessons from an improbable life." deval patrick, he is the governor of massachusetts.
ck in a momt. stay with us. >> rose: june 12 marked the second anniversary of president mahmoud ahmadinejad's disputed reelection in iran. claims of fraud sparked the largest popular demonstration since the 1979 islamic revolution. the government responded with a deadly crackdown. mr. zacarias moussaoui was in the... mousavi was placed under house arrest and there appears to be growing divisions between ayatollah hamanahind ahmadinejad. joining me is doctor ervand abrahamian. welcome. >> ( translated ): thank you very much. >> it's a pleasure to have you here to understand where reform is in iran today.
give us an overview of where reform is, where the reform movement is, where the green moment is. >> ( translated ): well, the green movement started after electoral fraud was noticed and there was a period of time duringhich there were a lot of demonstrations, large demonstrations, more than three million people demonstrated in iran, in tehran. after that, there was violence, repression of demonstrators, the government used any possible means they had to suppress the people, to jail the people. they tortured people. they expelled students and the professors in the unirsities, they used any means they had to eliminate the green movement.
but today we see that the green movement is still alive. and if the green movement doesn't have any opportunity to have big demonstrations liked the a few ars ago, it's actual a deeper movement now and and the sentiments have been expanded and the government knows very well right now that it cannot go on and continue in the same way. the green movement is not superficial. it's not something that comes and goes, that disappears after being put under pressure. no, we are in a resistance phase and the government's trying to scare us. >> rose:o are they successful so far in terms of preveing mr. mousavi from being the leader of the green movement by house arrest, by surveillance?
>> ( tralated ): i don't think so. they jailed mr. mousavi and mr. karoubi but mr. karoubi and mr. mousavi have maintained their positions and they've said that they didn't change their opinion, they've resisted and they cling to their facts. that is what scares the government. >> rose: what can you see happening between now and the next election? >> ( translated ): well, it's not reall possib to guess everything, but what i can tell you is that right now there were a number of allegations, we're saying that the govement is regularly lying, that it's providing false figures about the economy of the count and at, in fact, it's tryg to use the money... trying to use
religion and instrumentalize relations and it has also committed great fraudulent acts and after that government people reply no, it's false, but today e people realizehat we were saying the truth. in other words, we've been able to raise that in our country and everyone knows that our government cannot go on like this and will not promote democracy in freedom in iran. and that's a big thing. addition,here's a very important diverge yensy on the government's side. former allies and people who were working together and now they are split. they are split about the monopoly of power and that is also something that today we can count on. >> rose: how do you think y will be age to change iran? chan the regime in iran?
>> ( translated ): first you need to distinguish between change and change of regime. what we want is to... the right of self-determination of the iranian people. the iranian people must be about to decide. we want a democratic government and if the people want to change the government and the regime it's up to peopleto decide. but what we want toave is a demoatic process in iran. >> rose: so yo are satisfyed to wait until democratic reform can elect learship from the green movement? >> ( translated ): of course. what we want is to have a democratic path and a democratic life in iran.
a society in which all political trends can express themselves freely. we want free parties, we want free press and we also want a civil society that can work free and on that basis we could probably say that elections would mean something. otherwise doesn't have any meaning if you don't have these kinds of freedoms. >> rose: what are the ramifications of the apparent confct between ayatollah hamana and president ahmadinejad. >> i what i think that there are a number of differences as far as the sharing of power is concerned. they don't have any differences in such a way they govern becae they're not looking for a decratic way of governing.
what they're looking for is to have more and more power. if they're sharing a power is the sharing of power but for us the t way of governg is everything. it not a question of people, it's democratic institutions that are important. >> rose: so the conflict between the two of them is simply about power? >> i think so, yes. >> rose: there's also the question of the arab spring. what impact has it had in iran and might it have? >> i think that the iranian green movement was the first democratic movement in the region. in fact, we were the very first country thatried it in t gion with the first country that started to nationalize national resources and after that we had a revolution in the region and this time, again, the
democratic movement started first in iran. and i think the iranian green movement has been a source of influencfor other democratic movements in arab countries. but afterwards the arab movement has had some influence onthe iranian moveme, as has given us a n impulse and it has shown us that there's a possibility to succeed. >>ose: but do you have the same courage and will that you expressed at the time of the elecon controversy and we see everyday inyria and in libya to go to the streets and try to have the same kind ofmpact they've had in the streets in tunisia, in egypt, in syria, in libya? >> ( translated ): well, the demonstrations are one tactic but not the only one.
we have had some demonstrations but the situation in iran is different from the situation in other countries. we need to use other methods. for example, i think that the situation in iran and egypt is different and i think that the united states had a strong influence on the egyptian army and the iranian military is very independent and there won't be a possibility to exert any influence on that army and i think that the... therefore that the situation is very different. completely different from egypt. we must analyze each country according to the means and the situation in each country. we can't analyze in the same way all of those movements. i think that in syria, for example, the situation is very different as well. the experienc of t government
in repressin demonstrations is higher, is more significant, especially than syria. >> rose: thank y very much for joining us. >> tnk you very much. >> rose: we continue our look at iranian politics and the reform movement with haleh esfandiari from washington. she directs the middle east program at the woodrow wilson international center for scholars. in 2007 she was detained in solitary confinement for more than 110 days days. joing usn w york, ervand abrahamian, he's a professor of middle eastern history and politics at cuny graduate center and hadi ghaemi is the director for human rights in iran. i'm pleased toave him join me as we look at reform politics, the reform movement, e impact of the arab spring in iran. estest, tell me what is happening today and how you assess where reform is in iran
today i think the greenovement is not dead but it is dormant. we have seen this the tactic of the government in using intimidation, arrest, torture, long-term sentencing has helped. i mean, i was just recently told by a friend that whatever a demonstration is announced a lot of parents try to lock up their children at so to prevent them from going out because they know what the consequences are going to be. but the green movement is there and people talk about it and they are aware of it and they believe that there will be a comeba. as for the arab spring, you know
it's basically the iranian spring was ahead ofhe arab spring. >> rose: exactly. >> so we know that. bui think peoplere watching and following it very carefuy they would prefer to see in iran something like egypt or tunisia happen rather than almost a cil war in yemen or the violence in lya and syria. >> rose:he green movement is the vessel for reform in iran? >> it is the best hope for change. what change means will it be a reform o more drastic change is something that we have to see. t definitely the green movement right now is the most importanchallenge to the political system. >> rose: and the means of the ballot box is the election? i mean, constitutional reform is
the... means they have chosen. >> yes. that is the hope and that's what's... the hope of reform is for 12 years. except for that for the past two years we have seen the supreme leader of the revolutionary guard and other conservative element don't have any attention allowing the ballot box become the voice for the people and now we actually see friction between the president and supreme leader which may open up this space for, again, t ballot box becoming the try yum fant will of the people. >> rose: is it simply about power? this conflict between the president and the supreme leader? >> it's much more than that. i think the political infrastructure of the islamic republic is a dead end. the ry notion of the supreme leader being an absolute ruler request k which can interfere in any affairs of the state now is being challenged by his own hand-picked president, mahmoud ahmadinejad. and i think that's at the core
of it that khamenei and the idea of a supreme leader,a single american contr oeverything is no longer tenable. >> rose: and where are other elements of the iranian political spectrum, like rafsanjani? where are they on that particular debate between the president and the supreme leader. >> they're very much on the supreme leader's side right now because they want to weaken ahmadinejad. the rivalry between ahmadinejad and rafsanjani is very deep. and actually rafsanjani trying to use the opportunity to impeach ahmadinejad if possible and bring back people around him to power. >> rose: what can be done on the human rights front? >> well, i think conventional wisdom, of course, is if the u.s. champions the question of human rights this will help the refo movement. my own view is that actually opposite. that the more u.s. is in talks abt human rights violations, the u.s. government, this
actually undercuts the reform movementecause in iran there is a general suspicion of u.s. foreign policy. they would wrath have this done by themselves rather than by pressure from thunited states. >> rose: haleh how do you come down on the question that the united stes is better off not to say anything or say sothing or any other outside force, whether it's europe or asia or ere it might come from. >> i think when it comes to human rights issues, the more the international community lkand criticizes what is happeningin iran the more it is going to beffective. and, you know, my own experience shows that had it not been for such an international outcry i probably would have been sitting in jail now. but i believes ors like others in this country and across
europe hence a lot to keep the issue of human rights alive. the government may not react to it immediately but at the end they do. >> rose: do you agree with that? >> absolutely. i think that the key thing of... it shouldn't be only the united states that's the flag bearer of human rights. ere should be a very multinational within the united nations system. >> rose: i realize theork you do, but is there a sufficient body of gravitas to have an impact? >> yes, the minimum of it has been invoked now. we have au.n.-appointedpeci expert who aually start work as of tomorrow focus on iran and his engagement with iranian government will be the most powerful leverage we have had in the past decade. >> rose: and what will he do? >> he will be tasked to go into the country with the prisons, talk to the victims. >> rose: and he'll be allowed to come because of u.n. cover? >> that we hopehat the iranian
government will let him. but if they don't, they're only making it more of a crisis. and they're pushing themselves into a corner because in november again the general assembly is going to take up the issue. so after each successive installment there going come under pressure but it should but through the united nations. >> rose: let's assume that mr. mousavi had won the election and been given credit for winning the election and was elected. would the irani foreign policy-- foreign policy-- be friend different? haleh? >> when it comes to the nuclear issue, no. but when it comes to reaching out to the outside world to talking indirectly probably out first with the united states sure iwoulhave made the difference. i thk mr. mousavi would have followed the foreign policy o
president but don't forget, charlie, that the end it's the supreme leaderho has the last word on foreign policy issues. >> rose: for the time being. >> yes. >> rose: i mean, there's a challenge of the authority. if mr. ahmadinejad is trying to increase his party and you've also got the revolutionary guards they're also part ofthe por equation, are they not? >> sure they are, but we hav seen in the recent bate that goes on in iran the revolution regard commanders basically side with their commander in chief who is the supreme leader. are there divisions among them i'm sure. but at this stage the last word is with the supreme leader and i think this time president ahmadinejad crossed the red line. >> rose: can he, by crossing the red line, lead to an ear eltion is tre any possibility that he might be dismissd? that it would be a catalyst for
change in iran? >> i don't think the supreme leader wants to basically get him dismissed but make sure that he doesn't have one of his proteges running for the next election. >> rose: that would be his chief of staff. >> yes. so it's basically... the supreme lead wants to have an ending... ending his tenure at the time but after tt more of a conservative pern he uld rely on replacing him. >> which would, of course, not solve the question of reform because the reform movement will remain there. >> rose: with respect to iranian foreign policy today and suppo we mentioned the nuclear issue, but what about ppor of hazard anhamas. would that belanged if e reform hezbollah and hamas. would that will be change? >> yes, it would not be an a 180 degree change but they would be much less confrontational with
the outside world. they would be wanting hezbollah's and hamas's relations to help them to both solidify their foreign policy in the region and make amends with the foreign powers who are very concerned about this relationship. >> rose: what would have to happen in iran for the supreme leader and those that support him, the clerics that support him, for the system of the way it works today to change. what would create that kind of change? so the supreme leader was no longer in charge of, say, defense and national security. and therefore the commander-in-chief of the revolutionary guard. >> it would require a change in constitution and the question is when we l we reach a point where this discussion... which, again, it's or a decade thatuch chges are being contemplated. they just never get to be publicly airednd debated and
political forces will line u behind them. but eventually what iranians want is peaceful change and peeful change has to happen through a procedural manner like a constitutional reform. and that's when the supreme leader can lose it absolute rule. for that to happen, economic and political situations have changed. >> i think incrementally they'd have to open up who runs for parliament which would then bring much more reformers in and reformers from parliament could then try to initiate changes even inthe constitution the constitution does have plauzs and it permits amendment and reform. >> rose: what happened when the reformers were in charge of iranian government? whenr. ktami was president? was that a lost opportunity >> sure it was a lost opportunity but mr. hatny did more than anybody expected really from hi and he opened up the social
media. he arranged for freedom of the press. there was freedom of expression. but then he was also facing the power of the supreme lder and the people who were against things. so within that framework he managed even to control a little bit the intelligence ministry. so he did all he could. the problem was that it was not continued by the next president. you ended up with the president who was... the first thing he did was trying to reverse all the social and political reform that present khatami will have to introduce. so i think it's going to be, again, if there is change, it is going to be within the system and as iran said and as i said earlier, it has to be... it will be at first incremental steps
and then it will widen. >> i would also add that there is, in fact, because there are so much resentments, especially after the crackdown, a sudn opening could actually unravel a lot and could lead to a lot of violence. it would be... >> rose: a sudden opening would be what? >> if... let's say suddenly it was announced that people could denstrate freely and so on there would be, in fact, a great deal of turbulence. but if it was an opening where the guardian council that vets candidates for the parliamentary elections that is liberalized so you can have some meaningful elections where reformers can come into positions of power in parliament. then you can have a gradual openingp. at would be a ch more, i would say, wis change than any
sudden, let's say, opening of those systems. >> rose: thank you for coming, thank you very much. thank you, haleh, for coming. >> thank you. >> rose: pleasure to see you again. >> rose: anne kreamer andark truss are here. she teamed up with mark truss from j. walter thompson, the advertising giant. together theyondued surys to see how americans working together balance their feelings in the professional environment. i am pleased to have both of them at this table. welcome. great to see you again. so why this? what made you decidehat this was going to be the next ann kraemer project. >> there were a couple reasons. one was the fact that the recession meant for the first time in americ history women were over 50% of the work for. >> rose: right. >> so that was one of those
ah-ha kind of lightbulbs. is this a moment to stepack and rethink workplace norms, how offices function. the second piece was that in and around the two t 2000s the functional magnetic resonance image magazine allowed us to look at working human brains as so i thought are women and men different in any kind of neurobiological way? and that led to the exploration of the book. >> rose: what didyou find out abouhow men and women are different in a neurological way? >> well, neurobiological there's a lot of different ways. how they manifest that is perhaps even more interesting. women do cry, you know? the data would say that about 40% of women would say they've cried at work in the past year. >> rose: and why is that? because of the brain structure is different? is that what you're saying? the anatomy of the brain is different? >> part of it is that. part of i is brain checals, prolactin plays a big role in
it. part of it is how they need to express themselves as well. where it comes from is perhaps en more ieresing men who cry at work-- and not many of themdo-- but 10% do, rarely cry because of something that happened at work. it's normally something that happed outside of work that affected them while they were at work and they began to cry. women, onthe other hand, most of their crying is due to stress in the office, rival factions within the office. someone getting a bad performance revie. sort ofwhere it comes from and how it gets expressed. >> rose: on the oth side of that, is there more camaraderie among women as there is among men? >> i think it's a different kind of camaraderie but i want to go back to what mark was saying. what women most often want to do
is get angry. but that feel it would be professional suicide to get angry at someone in the workplace because you know what we would be labeled and that is a very dangerous situation for women to trod. so the more socially acceptable thing for them to do is to cry which is i kind of socially conditioned as expect. >> rose: but is it thepeutic? it's therapeutic for men who say they feel refreshed, they feel revived, they see the world more clearly. for women on th other hand they feel worse. again, this is the kind of social conditioning piece. one other interesting things in the research we found out is that women view other women as... who cry far more harshly than men do and it's always personal. it's not project was poor or something. it's she did a bad job.
>> rose: so women tend to define the... if it's the lack of success as a personal reason rather than some other... >> rose: >> aevere personal reason. when men ce across a woman in the workplace crying, they're almost disssive of it, wl, that's whawomen do, women cry sometimes. when women see other women doing it, they began to look at them and say thers something wrong, they're unstable. >> exactly the word. so it's not just a personal failure. unstable is a severe characterization. >> rose: so what is the emotional management tool kit? >> well, it's something i created that would sort of... in the book i looked at anger and fear and frustration and anxiety and joy and the emotional complement for each o there prescriptive things you can do. so you can help yourself. if you feel like you tend to have a hair-trigger personality and that's not working so well
at the office which wouldn't... it's not a very effective management tool, then there's things i suggest you can do to help you that. if you feel like you're angst all the time and the data on anxiety that we have is just extraordinary in whas going on in this country with anxiety, particularly related to work. >> rose: what does t data show? >> the data shows that at a baseline level when there's nothing cataclysmic happening in the world, you've probably got seven out of ten people expressing-- in this country-- some level of anxiety. and that tends to move up gas prices go up or go up as we're involved in wars around the world. the most fascinating thing we found is that people tend to have a threshold or a tolerance for one major anxiety at a time. be it financial security... and
if you have two if you have a threshd for one and you have two, what happens? >> that people really start to behave differently. and i look at the upcomg election and if i was consulting barack obama i would say he's in a tenuous situation right now. because the two ways the pendulum tends to swi is am i worried about financial and jobs or am i worried about safety and serity and crime? and we saw people were worried about safety and secity until the recession hit. then everything swung to the recession and no one cared so much about safety and security. >> rose: economic security trumped smal >> yeah. because it hits you closer. it hits you at home and it's real. >> rose: you worry about keeping the family together. >> exaly. but now we're in a situation where we still have the financial issues, we're drawing
down troops and we've got problems and it feels like a ripe situation for... >> rose: if someone read off a narrative... >> yes. >>f fear. >> rose: >> to help americans manage this double-loaded crisis. >> rose: so who is this book intended? >> it's intended for everybody. i mean that. i hope it's a guide... >> rose: so let's say men and women who goes go into the workplace, if you rise that your emotion and anxieties and fears are all part of have an impact on you the more you understand the less impact it will have. >> absolutely. and not just people who go into the workplace. in 21st century america it's no longer the fiction like in the 1950s pre-cell phone pre-internet, you got in your car and wento wk and there were these bifurcated worlds. we work everywhere now and there's constantly this stuff
flowing in from all points and if you're a freelancer, if you're working for etsy, whatever it is, you're anxious about they're not getting back to me. emotion informs every single thing that happens in our lives. >> rose: this sounds le the ki of book that managers ought to be reading to understand the behavioral tenons within the ople that work with them. >> absolutely. and i think one of the things that the recession has done is all the h.r. departments in the country have been just decite sothey're now mostly about how can we avoid.... >> rose: human resources first... >> how can we avoid being litigated against in these situations. so there's no more kind of career development in place in organizations. and i think it's actually kind of a substitute for that that would help a lot of people figure out ways they can help themselves. is there more and more focus on the workplace because of all these? >> there's more and more focus on the workplace because we all are working... >> rose: and because of the dynamic of more women, 51% of
the workplace? >> more women in the workplace, we're all working chronically and i don't think there's a single person in america who thinks retirement is going to happen. i think we're all going to be working until we drop. >> rose: really. >> yeah, i do. >> rose: do you thi that? >> i do, yeah. myself personally, i know. >> rose: because you don't want to retire or because of the economic circumstances? a little of both. but i don't see living a retirement of going around the house... >> rose: are we tired people happy? do we know anything about that? >> they would say more so than not. >> rose: they find great satisfaction? >> but i think some of it... >> rose: people retire at like 50 which is stunning to me. >> that is stunning to me. >> i think t new generation of peoplere retiring very differently than i'm going to florida, i'm a snow bird, i sit around the house. i think people are volunteering, staying on in different roles, keeping their minds in more active.
so i think it's different than the sense of the word retirements we know of. >> rose: how do you frame the questions so we get the maximum feedback. >> well, you approach surveying with hypotheses and we had some hypotheses but we also knew that there was stuff we didn't know we didn't know. >> rose: what's an example of stuff you didn't know you didn't know? >> i think we didn't know how people necessarily expressed their emotion. there's an interesting part in the book that looks at what emional workplace personality type you are. anby figuring out what kind of inner fortitude you have, do you tend to have strong inner fortitude or week and then how you express that. do you express in the a very outward way or do you sort of keep it inside? we emerged these four
personnalty types. >> rose: what i would like to believe is whether you cry or nohas nothinto do with internal... >> it doesn't. in fact, this is much re aut broad emion, not just crying. it's really about how you deal with it on a day to day basis. >> rose: so do we know what your next book is going to be? >> i have three possible subjects and i'm having lunch with my editor on thursday. >> rose: so you walk in with three ideas and he or she will say... >> we see which one she thinks is... >> rose: why don't you just tell her what you think? why don't you do what you want to do? >> i gennely like all of them eqlly. so it's an interest... because the publishing industry is in such duress these days i want her kind of participation and think about what she thinks is going to be the most viable one to publish. i like them all equal lift. >> rose: your husband, what's he writing? >> he just finished a new novel. >> rose: a novel? >> yes, heust finished it. >> rose: he gets more
satisfaction with novels than anything else, does he not? >> absolutely. just having... because he was a journalist for so long, the ability to sit in his desk and just invent things without having them have to be factual, it's bli. >> rose: it really is, yes. did you know he wa going do all this when he was a senior at harvard? >> no, i had no clue. happy he did, though. >> rose: the book is called "it's always personal. emotion the new workplace, anne kreamer. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org